General HotHardware Tech News

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

realneil — Wed, 10 Nov 2010 04:27:31 GMT

10 down, 3 up, no limits at all. Just downloaded 32 and 64bit versions of Ubuntu tonight.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

DSuarez — Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:51:16 GMT

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Excessive-Amounts-of-Bandwith-Usage/168216229875189?v=app_2373072738#!/pages/Excessive-Amounts-of-Bandwith-Usage/168216229875189?v=wall

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

wildbluecustomer — Sat, 21 Mar 2009 05:44:49 GMT

I'm sure you guys have heard of or have wildblue

sattelite internet right?

well anyway, I've been a customer for going on a

year now and i knew from the start i was gettin

sc#%@!*. I purchased a brand new emachine (don't

laugh) and signed a contract with wildblue for their

silver package $50.00 month (512kb download & 128

upload) and i noticed almost immediately there was

something wrong. The downloads start out around

100kb and quickly drop to around 30. I filed a

complaint with Dishnetwork (the people i recieve

wildblue through) and they sent someone to examine

the prob and he noticed my claim was true. To make a

long story short, several calls and a BBB complaint

later, they accuse my BRAND NEW computer to be the

problem. Since i didn't purchase service directly

from wildblue they (wildblue) wouldn't return my

calls. I know what you're thinking why didn't i just

go with another ISP? THERE IS NO FREAKING OTHER ISP

IN MY AREA! MEANWHILE, i'm stuck with a 18 month

contract. no viruses...no malware...no

spyware...just a really slow connection that i'm

overpaying for.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

Dave_HH — Tue, 24 Jun 2008 00:13:40 GMT

You hit the nail on the head, DanM. Very well said. Plain and simple, you can limit bandwidth on a package/customer level within the guidelines of a published service agreement. This way it's all understood up front and if someone didn't read the fine print, so be it. However, when we talk about limiting BitTorrent or some other site that offers content in any way, then it's nothing more than censorship. Or at least that's the net result of what occurs. If an ISP doesn't have the network intelligence to provide QoS on a link level basis and the general bandwidth limitations that go with that, then they shouldn't be in business. Anything above and beyond that is just utter crapola.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

ice91785 — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:27:36 GMT

Well said sir.....very well said

Re: RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

AjayD — Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:24:06 GMT

JLSDev:
Not when I'm presented with a REAL choice of ONE - unless you're one of those who also likes to lump Dialup and DSL access, which fail to hold a candle to cable access in the connection speed department, in with cable.

I agree completely. I have recently moved and consequently have been forced to go from my previous 12mb cable connection to a measly 1.5mb DSL connection. I feel as though I have been relegated to speeds remeniscent of 56k dial-up. My only alternative would be a satellite connection, or dial-up, neither of which are remotely close to being high speed. While there are manifold options when it comes to selecting an ISP, the likelihood of being fortunate enough to have a choice between multiple companies who offer truly competitive speeds is rare at best.

As far as the government coming to the rescue on this dilemma is concerned, I wouldn't hold my breath. My faith in our government, which has become a morbidly obese bureaucracy, has evaporated faster than isopropyl alcohol poured into a scalding frying pan.

The only real competition cable has is fiber optics. However, given the scarcity of fiber optics and their extremely limited residential availability, it can hardly be called competition at this stage. The government should have helped build the infrastructure necessary for widespread fiber optic availability, rather than bending over backwards for cable companies who can't even abide by terms they have already agreed to.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

JLSDev — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:19:39 GMT

"Cable ISPs are not free, but tied to government regulations"

"Tied to", meaning "having been given", government furnished monopolies [not "regulations"], more like, and, right now, free to do whatever they please with them and TO US. The regulations being proposed are the inevitable result of their [the cable co's] lack of responsibility.

"The best way to break a monopoly is to remove entry barriers (regulations)."

The entry barrier to breaking into the cable provider business is the cost of building the infrastructure which has nothing to do with any regulations of which there are currently none or very, very few.

"you have much more control over your wallet when you subscribe Internet services"

Not when I'm presented with a REAL choice of ONE - unless you're one of those who also likes to lump Dialup and DSL access, which fail to hold a candle to cable access in the connection speed department, in with cable. I find it remarkable that you agree with the statement that "Free Market and Cable ISPs is an oxymoron" said because the monopolies they have been granted is the antithesis of free market and then continue to talk about free market somehow magically coming into play when you have already, in essence, agreed there IS NOT ONE.

I agree that, in free market cases, government regulation is NOT the answer but the various municipalities already "gave away the farm" of the free market in this case by granting monopolies and it's now too late. Had the cable ISPs "behaved themselves" as I mentioned earlier, none of this would be necessary but, given the state of monopoly they have been given coupled with their own actions of trying to seize power over what needs to be a free and open communication media - unlike radio and television which are already totally controlled by a select few big money corporations - they have dug themselves right into this mess. With no free market forces in play we are left with only one remedy, that being a quite simple regulation which essentially states "NO, you are NOT allowed to discriminate against anyone providing or desiring legal content based on that content". IOW, "you are not allowed to give preferential treatment to content provided by you or your 'affiliates' over anyone else's for your own gain or otherwise. You were given a 'special deal' to provide a public service which you agreed to and you are NOT allowed to change the rules to suit your own new ideas of what this means so late in the game. You ISPs were never appointed 'content police' or 'content controllers' or 'Internet censors' and you don't get to appoint yourselves to any of those positions now.". Oh, and BTW, "You DO need to abide by existing laws, like the ones prohibiting false advertisement, as well just like everyone else has to do so no "behind-the-scenes technical monkey business" that falsifies what you openly and clearly advertise under the false pretense of 'network management', either".

Re: RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

DanMorin — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:22:15 GMT

I agree that "Free Market" and "Cable ISPs" is an oxymoron. This is because the Cable ISPs are not free, but tied to government regulations. More government regulations will just make things worse, like all government interventions.

It's not about "free market", here, it's all about monopoly and honesty

The best way to break a monopoly is to remove entry barriers (regulations).

and if the "children" refuse to "behave themselves", it's time for the "parents" to step in.

This assumes the government is the parent One Big Happy Family and has the answers to everything. In fact the government is the source of this mess.

If the ISPs refuse to "behave themselves", the free market (customers) will punish them. Politicians will not puhish the ISPs, but likely to reward them with taxpayer's money. Corporations want to make money, and you have much more control over your wallet when you subscribe Internet services, than you have control on the money you send to the politicians. The government takes your money by force (taxes) and by theft (inflation). The more money the government has, the more power it has, and this is why there is so much corruption. Since corporations want to maximize their profits, they will use the easiest way. Behemoth Corporations find it far easier to lobby the government for privileges (regulations) and handouts (subsidies), than to work hard and sell goods and services to customers. It is time to take control of our lives and stop giving away our power to politicians.

A group of corrupted politicians and bureaucrats (aka Government) should never be referred as "parents". This analogy is simply wrong.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

JLSDev — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:54:07 GMT

"Free Market" and "Cable ISPs" is an oxymoron. The cable companies were granted monopolies - in more areas than not - based on the "we can't afford to build out the infrastructure without it" along with an implicit "we promise to be fair and not argue the 'standard business model' approach since we are being granted preferential treatment over and above what any 'standard business' would receive but EVERYONE will benefit" argument which local governments bought into "lock, stock and barrel". Any "Free Market" based analysis is rendered entirely without merit whenever the term "monopoly" [particularly government-sanctioned] enters into the equation and it is very prominent in this one.

What you mention in a subsequent post "There will always be dishonest businesses" is entirely applicable in the case of ISPs who, once they have completed the majority of their infrastructure and are now firmly entrenched, as many others have tried to do and in too many cases succeeded in doing, they are now "changing the rules" they initially agreed to not to mention attempting to change the definition of "unlimited", which means "NOT limited [as in by ANYTHING]", that they used to "sell this thing" to the public at large, to some "spin-doctored" NEW definition that has little resemblance to what they clearly stated as the original premise.

In addition, Cox as an example, currently advertises: "Cox High Speed Internet is an always-on connection with speed to download in seconds, not minutes... Features include:

* PowerBoost
* Cable modem technology that gives you a boost of speed for video, photos, music and any large file access."

Note the word "any" and the complete absence of any "clever caveats".

They happen to be one of the providers reported to be "throttling" yet their business model differentiates according to bandwidth, already, with three different speeds at three different price points those being 1.5 Mbps, 7 Mbps and 12 Mbps [download].

It's not about "free market", here, it's all about monopoly and honesty and if the "children" refuse to "behave themselves", it's time for the "parents" to step in.

Re: RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

DanMorin — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:16:30 GMT

Well said evil_sam. If I could vote for a post, I would give your post 5 stars.

I beleive the Net Neutrality saga is a big PR stunt.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

evil_sam — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:03:39 GMT

Look, Google is behind Net Neutrality because of money.

The ISPs like Comcast and AT&T that are pushing IPTV claim to need throttling and prioritization to ensure reliable service. Maybe they do. Whatever the case, they aren't going to invest in the necessary infrastructure if they can't ensure that people will be watching and PAYING. But, if they get their way and are allowed to prioritize transmission of their own video content over other sources (i.e. YouTube), then Google is left with a $1.65 million dead weight.

Sure, I support throttling if it's necessary. Just let me have a choice in the matter. If I like AT&T's video, I will definitely give it the bandwidth and priority it needs. I like the idea of knowing what's going on with my ISP and my broadband, and I'm all for a neutral Internet and getting to select what I want.

What I hate is when Google pretends to be the savior of all us poor saps who need their help, and in reality they're just another big company looking out for their own interests. They have every right to ensure they have the ability to deliver their content. Hey Google, just say that's what you're doing!

Re: RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

DanMorin — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:35:25 GMT

TCP/IP does not require network throttling. What I am saying is bandwidth is finite, and during peak time, some network packets must be dropped when congestion occurs. The best way to give a good service to everyone is by throttling bandwidth. If you want more bandwidth, you have to be ready to pay more.

There will always be dishonest businesses. The free market is the best to weed out those businesses, because dishonest businesses don't keep their customers. If another ISP promise the same bandwidth package for the same price, which one will you keep? The only dishonest businesses that remain in the market are those having a monopoly, and it is impossible to have a monopoly without the help of the government.

Politicians are not honest either, in fact they earn their living exclusively from lies. Having big businesses sleeping with big government is not the solution for honesty and transparency. Competition is what drives good businesses into the market and makes bad businesses go bankrupt. The government is against competition by making laws to protect itself and the big corporations supporting it. This is why we have regulations, patents and antitrust laws - to keep entrenched corporations in place.

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

ice91785 — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:10:34 GMT

You can't possibly be implying that TCP/IP requires network throttling are you? Yes transmission control protocol is what TCP stands for but it has NOTHING to do with the end-total-bandwidth you or I experience but in fact the way that the datagrams are handled from a source/destination standpoint.

I am all for ISP's being HONEST with their consumers -- if they advertised '$40 a month and you can transmit up to 20GB @ 10Mb/s' I wouldn't give a hoot as they are being forthright. However what irritates me is how unlimited high-speed internet isn't that at all! You wouldn't buy a car thinking you can drive anywhere you desire, only to find out they have a remote-kill switch for when you hit 1000 miles in a month....why should we subject ourselves to accepting this from our internet providers?

Re: RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

DanMorin — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:12:51 GMT

'Traffic Control' is built-in to the Internet. The TCP/IP stands for "Transmission Control Protocol / Internet Protocol". Building a network without traffic control is like building an ATM Cash machine without handling the case of insufficient funds.

There is nothing wrong for an ISP throttling bandwidth. Most ISPs base their business model on bandwidth. You can get "Unlimited Internet Access" for only $9.95 per month, however limited at 56 Kbps. If you want faster access, you have to upgrade your bandwidth package, of course, with an extra fee.

There is a lot of confusion about Net Neutrality.

Notice the following phrase at http://compnetworking.about.com/od/internetaccessproviders/f/net-neutrality.htm contradicts itself:

"Some service providers may prefer to regulate the flow of traffic through their networks for business reasons, while free economy advocates suggest that traffic controls are unnecessary"

Free economy advocates should not call for regulations. ISPs have the right to limit bandwidth to their customers. The debate is not about ISPs blocking websites; it is about ISPs giving higher bandwidth to chosen websites for high-quality video. Likewise, ISPs may wish sell subscriptions to access to web channels, the same as Cable Television. The good news is Internet access will be faster, so the 'slower websites' will still be faster than what we have today.

See my other detailed post at http://www.hothardware.com/News/New_Net_Neutrality_Bill_Proposed/

RE: Google To Develop ISP Throttling Detector

Slamlander — Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:56:21 GMT

Broadband already has a definition and it's not bandwidth related, it's related to the modulation technique. Any legal/political definitions are irrelevent. ADSL is broadband, as are cablemodems (why you can share a voice channel on the same line). The difference between Cable and DSL is the architecture of the wiring plant. I avoid cable whenever possible, as a bad architecture, DSL or other Point-to-Point plant architecture is far superior. Baseband is the other technology, a la ethernet, 100baseTX. Obama displays his ignorance there.

It really gets messed up when you toss in the new Spread Spectrum techniques.

That said, only the cable companies will benefit from throtteling. The telcos simply add capacity. Cable plant architecture doesn't let you do that easily. That's why ComCast was one of the first ones to do it.