The Windows 8 Power Struggle: Metro vs Desktop

rated by 0 users
This post has 50 Replies | 4 Followers

Top 10 Contributor
Posts 26,370
Points 1,192,120
Joined: Sep 2007
ForumsAdministrator
News Posted: Fri, Mar 9 2012 11:30 AM
We've been looking forward to Windows 8's Consumer Preview for months. This, after all, is Microsoft's big chance to show what they've been working on and unveiling bit by bit for the past year; a chance to evaluate the sum total of changes and advancements baked into the next-generation operating system. We'll discuss some of the features of Metro and Desktop (aka Classic) separately, but our overall focus will be on how the two environments interact with each other.

Metro, Microsoft's new UI, is bold, a dramatic departure from anything the company has previously done in the desktop/laptop space, and absolutely great. It's tangible proof that Redmond really can design and build its own unique products and experiences.


Now, let's consider Desktop mode and then look at how they mesh, or don't.
  • | Post Points: 290
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 225
Points 2,395
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: San Antonio
Kiristo replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 12:16 PM

I hate change, so I probably will hate Metro.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 207
Points 1,845
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Erakith replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 12:39 PM

If Metro is forced on me I will move to Linux. I refuse to be put into an environment I can't benefit from.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 200 Contributor
Posts 385
Points 3,845
Joined: Jun 2011
RTietjens replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 12:46 PM

Metro UI is absolute crap. For those who, like me, feel that this "change for change's sake" nonsesne has to stop, I recommend Zorin Linux, designed to "look and feel" like Windows XP; or Linux XP, which should be obvious.

I'll have to build my own PCs again, once the OEMs start forcing Windows 8 on us. A pre-installed Windows 8 is a deal-breaker for me; I won't buy it.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 200 Contributor
Posts 435
Points 6,255
Joined: May 2010
Location: Portland, Oregon

I used Windows 8 on my main of for about 4 days before canning it. I do still have it on my htpc though. I like the changes made to the task manager, file transfer, and much more. Being a desktop user I can't quite get on board with metro. Like stated in the article, wading through the metro interface is not quite productive, especially when on a 5760x1080 resolution! It's common for me to put tv episodes on one screen while gaming in the middle, and an internet browser on the other side. With metro, every time I bring up the start menu, the screen is blocked for whoever else might be watching. And I have to disagree about browsing media through metro. Searching while in the music task doesn't even bother looking in your library, but jumps straight to the music store, to purchase music you allready own. Once you are able to actually find your music, forget about finding what you want. As far as I can tell if you are browsing by artist, there is no way to quickly enter "artist album" to browse a certain artist's albums. The thing just seems dumbed down to me. Since when does everything need an app store? Sorry for the rant guys, but this needs a lot of work. I hope you can turn metro off for the final build

i7 950 - ASUS Rampage 3 Extreme - ASUS GTX 570 - AZZA Hurricane - 6 GB Corsair 1600 - Corsair AX750 - WD 1tb black  Cool Thank You HH!!!!!!Cool

 

AMD 1090T - MSI 890FXA-GD70 - XFX HD5850 x2 - CM Storm Scout - 8GB Kingston HyperX 1600 - Corsair HX850 - Sammy spinpoint f3 

 

  • | Post Points: 20
Not Ranked
Posts 1
Points 5
Joined: Mar 2012
PMoon replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 6:54 PM

I'm really confused on your conclusion. Are you, really, saying clicking *1* tile is harder then the OSX transition was? I mean seriously, if so, then you have such a skewed view of the past it throws everything else you said into doubt.

"Forcing people to change to something different when the superior interface for a particular task is still included in the OS will only breed resentment."

It's a tile right there on the front of the screen! And I call BS; ANY change will "...only breed resentment". Oh and so will doing nothing.

  • | Post Points: 5
Not Ranked
Posts 1
Points 5
Joined: Mar 2012
heato replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 8:50 PM

Metro re-minds me of the latest 'update' for Xbox live. Next I suppose I'll need Kinect to get around my desktop machine. If that fails, I'll just stay with Mint Linux 11. Smooth and it works.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator

I'm glad that I don't really ~HAVE~ to adopt Windows-8 and can keep the Windows-7 that I own now. (You know,....the one that's already bought and paid for) I could probably make this OS work for me for many years to come if I have to. And I will too.

I have Linux Mint 11 on one of my PC's already, and I'll give the Zorin Linux a try too.

If Micro(don't listen to us)soft leaves Metro in the force feeding tube, I'd rather go hungry..

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 5
Not Ranked
Posts 1
Points 5
Joined: Mar 2012
ppgreat replied on Fri, Mar 9 2012 10:34 PM

After playing around with Windows 8 for a while and viewing innumerable videos and reviews, I agree that Metro just isn't suited to desktop use. Phone and tablet, absolutely. Although there appears to be an awful lot of gesturing to sort through all the irregularly sized tiles.

And while I can see the usefulness of the Charms bar, whoever came up with the name should be expelled to the same seventh ring as those who came up with Me and Clippy.

  • | Post Points: 5
Not Ranked
Posts 4
Points 35
Joined: Dec 2011
bbo320 replied on Sat, Mar 10 2012 3:58 AM

I don't see any reason to "upgrade" to Win 8. I like the Win 7 desktop. The Metro desktop looks like a throwback to WFWG 3.1 substituting icons for folders.

  • | Post Points: 5
Not Ranked
Posts 1
Points 20
Joined: Mar 2012
munk replied on Sat, Mar 10 2012 6:13 AM

> Metro, Microsoft's new UI, is bold, a dramatic departure
> from anything the company has previously done in the
> desktop/laptop space, and absolutely great.

Says who?

Do you know *anything* about usability?
Have you *ever* used (or just seen) Linux desktop?

One word: bullshit.
Microsoft is dead in the desktop market for years.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 50 Contributor
Posts 2,383
Points 31,080
Joined: Nov 2010
Location: Crystal Lake,IL
rrplay replied on Sat, Mar 10 2012 7:51 AM

With all 9 different version of Win 8 scheduled why not listen to desktop users that want a total non Metro version, with some of the Win 8 features like the updated task manager, refresh, reset and a others and roll out a Service Pack for Win 7.being able to turn off the Metro [cr^p ] gui is one thing, not even having having it there on the install is another.

Plenty of choice out that work a heck of a lot better like Mint 11 and many other spins, that are much easier to navigate ,maintain ,and get things done.

"Don't Panic ! 'cause HH got's your back!"

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 200 Contributor
Posts 358
Points 2,565
Joined: Sep 2011

I'Klee stick with 64 bit Windows 7 Pro thank you very much.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Sat, Mar 10 2012 1:21 PM

rrplay:
why not listen to desktop users that want a total non Metro version

I agree, but I think that you're preaching to the choir here. Doesn't seem to be a lot of love for Metro around. Probably good on a Tablet PC like some have said, but my tablet already has IOS on it and works great. On a desktop, it would probably just be an exercise in frustration.

I also agree about Linux,....if more good shooters were ported to it, I'd leave Windows behind for good. It's only a matter of time before that happens, and then, just watch out.

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 100 Contributor
Posts 1,076
Points 11,645
Joined: Jul 2009
Joel H replied on Sun, Mar 11 2012 2:39 PM

Munk,

"Says who? Do you know *anything* about usability? Have you *ever* used (or just seen) Linux desktop? One word: bullshit. Microsoft is dead in the desktop market for years."

Two glaring flaws in your argument.

1) Linux's market share in laptop/desktop.

2) The Linux community's reaction to Unity.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 100 Contributor
Posts 1,076
Points 11,645
Joined: Jul 2009
Joel H replied on Sun, Mar 11 2012 6:42 PM

RealNeil,

You said: "I also agree about Linux,....if more good shooters were ported to it, I'd leave Windows behind for good. It's only a matter of time before that happens, and then, just watch out."

I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this. Linux's share of the desktop market has scarcely budged in years. The utilities that exist for providing cross-platform compatibility, like Wine, are in much better shape than they were 10 years ago, while the OSS utilities that provide equivalent functionality are equally improved -- yet as far as gaming is concerned, Linux ports remain a rare occurrence.

What is it that makes you think we're going to see greater support in the future -- or that greater support would matter? As a PC gamer myself, I can tell you that gaming is a barrier to me moving to Linux, but even if Linux supported PC gaming perfectly, I'd take Windows 7 64-bit over Linux any day. I'd only move to Linux if I literally couldn't stand whatever version of Windows was prominent *and* W7 was literally no longer supported by any current software.

That seems unlikely.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Sun, Mar 11 2012 7:35 PM

My Linux Mint and Zorin Linux are full featured OS's that are free. I can do just about anything I need to do with them. (even make them look just like Windows does)  Honestly, if I could game on them as well as I can on my Win-7 OS, I would use them instead of buying the latest flavor that MS needs us to want every few years. When you're retired and on a fixed income, ~free~ speaks much louder to you and sounds a lot sweeter too.

I like the security of these two Linux distributions and the fact that they just work without issue. I surf the web and those pesky exploits don't bother me. There are ports of some games on Linux now and people are working on more of them too. We'll see what the future holds for Linux gaming.If it works out, then fine. If not, I'll get over it too. Just like you, I still have my Win-7 to game with.

Linux is a viable OS for home use. I have it on two PC's now and they both are totally predictable. There is a lot of software available for them too. (also free)

Do I honestly think that Linux will surpass Windows in the gaming arena? (any arena?) Nope,.....but I'd love to see it happen. Do I see this whole Metro interface idea as a steaming turd? Yep!

The world is firmly rooted in MS software, we all realize this, but market share just doesn't matter to some of us.

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 20
Not Ranked
Posts 2
Points 55
Joined: Mar 2012
fredclown replied on Mon, Mar 12 2012 12:10 PM

You are using it wrong if you are putting every app icon on the start screen. It is only for your most used apps. The system is optimized for search. Just start typing and it will show a list of apps that match what you are typing.

  • | Post Points: 20
Not Ranked
Posts 2
Points 55
Joined: Mar 2012
fredclown replied on Mon, Mar 12 2012 12:17 PM

You could clutter up your Windows 7 desktop as well by putting a gazillion icons on it, but I doubt you would agree that that would be the OS's fault.

  • | Post Points: 35
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Mon, Mar 12 2012 12:30 PM

fredclown:
You could clutter up your Windows 7 desktop as well by putting a gazillion icons on it, but I doubt you would agree that that would be the OS's fault.

No, if I were to do such a stupid thing it would be a matter of personal choice. My own choice,.....

Metro is an abitrary move by Microsoft that may not be user configurable. It remains to be seen.

 

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 20
Not Ranked
Posts 1
Points 20
Joined: Mar 2012
PCornett replied on Mon, Mar 12 2012 7:58 PM

you are full of crap.. installing programs drop all of these icons automatically. you dont have a choice.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 50 Contributor
Posts 3,236
Points 37,910
Joined: Mar 2010
AKwyn replied on Mon, Mar 12 2012 11:02 PM

If Metro isn't all that's cracked up to be I may be sticking with Windows 7.

 

"The future starts with you; now start posting more!"

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 12:23 AM

You always have a choice, installing programs often puts icons on the traditional Windows desktop as well. Doesn't mean you can't customize after installation!

Meanwhile, this is still only a preview! Hundreds of changes are still pending!

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 12:30 AM

No, the point is valid. Difference in UI doesn't mean you'll be forced to take it as is and never create any customizations. Even Android can be customized and that's just a limited mobile OS.

Windows 8 will be a desktop OS, Metro UI notwithstanding, it will customizable, theme-able, and will be capable of far more than any mobile OS is capable of doing.

Whether you choose to even bother with it is your choice but making judgements based on the lack of familiarity and what is still only a preview alpha version is not really giving it any real thought and dismissing it mostly out of hand.

 

It's akin to someone dismissing and disparaging Linux because they don't like the Unity UI.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 50 Contributor
Posts 2,917
Points 24,670
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: United States, New York
digitaldd replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 9:08 AM

lifeskills:

I used Windows 8 on my main of for about 4 days before canning it. I do still have it on my htpc though. I like the changes made to the task manager, file transfer, and much more. Being a desktop user I can't quite get on board with metro. Like stated in the article, wading through the metro interface is not quite productive, especially when on a 5760x1080 resolution! It's common for me to put tv episodes on one screen while gaming in the middle, and an internet browser on the other side. With metro, every time I bring up the start menu, the screen is blocked for whoever else might be watching. And I have to disagree about browsing media through metro. Searching while in the music task doesn't even bother looking in your library, but jumps straight to the music store, to purchase music you allready own. Once you are able to actually find your music, forget about finding what you want. As far as I can tell if you are browsing by artist, there is no way to quickly enter "artist album" to browse a certain artist's albums. The thing just seems dumbed down to me. Since when does everything need an app store? Sorry for the rant guys, but this needs a lot of work. I hope you can turn metro off for the final build

 

I had some of the same frustrations initially, then I realized that you can simply re-associate your media files with Media Center or Windows Media Player instead of the Metro based Video and Music apps. What I really don't like is that most of the Metro apps seem to be for touchscreens mainly and do not work very well via keyboard/mouse. Also the metro style stuff doesn't offer any customization everything is either full screen which no re-sizing of the toolbars/etc of the application or 2/3 vs 1/3 and thus getting two apps on screen with primary focus on one. Also adding a Programs Toolbar on the desktop mimics the Start menu without using the third party tool which adds a Start menu.

 

Top 25 Contributor
Posts 3,626
Points 55,210
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: United States, Massachusetts
ForumsAdministrator
MembershipAdministrator
Dave_HH replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 2:01 PM

I certainly did love all the discussion on this one. It's great to see. And JDiaz, I think you touch on a point that we're trying to make by the very publication of Joel's article. Folks like us are hoping Microsoft takes note and implements changes to accommodate such things. For one, disabling Metro all together, at will, would be a great customization. I'd love it on my tablet, no way on my desktop.

Editor In Chief
http://hothardware.com


  • | Post Points: 20
Top 100 Contributor
Posts 1,076
Points 11,645
Joined: Jul 2009
Joel H replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 5:58 PM

Fredclown,

I didn't put those icons there. Windows did. Clearly you haven't installed the Consumer Preview, if you had, you'd know that current installers treat the Start Screen as if it were the Start Menu and load applications there by default.

I didn't change a single setting -- that's how the Start Screen populated when I started installing software. Please note that I only had 7-9 applications installed on the testbed, versus the several dozen on my typical system.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 100 Contributor
Posts 1,076
Points 11,645
Joined: Jul 2009
Joel H replied on Tue, Mar 13 2012 6:02 PM

JDiaz,

The Community Preview isn't an alpha. Given W8's timeline relative to previous Windows versions, the Developer Preview from last fall would be an alpha / early beta release with the Community Preview defined as a late beta.

If MS drops a third version before actual launch, it would be a Release Candidate (even if they don't use that nomenclature). If they don't, than the CP is effectively an RC.

  • | Post Points: 20
Not Ranked
Posts 13
Points 155
Joined: Aug 2011
FloydF replied on Wed, Mar 14 2012 6:16 AM

Looks like they stopped chasing Apple OS and went straight to IPad OS. This also seems to be similar to the direction Windows moble took in becomming a social networking toy rather than a business tool. I expect Business will stay with Windows 7, like they did with XP because everything between XP and 7 were total crap for business users.

Metro may work fine for the people who only use Social networking, e-mail and surfing, but not for business or power users. MS needs to stop chasing Apple users and stick with the rest of the world, or they will drive even more to Linux. I know they certainlr are pushing me closer to Linux.

I'm still so frustrated I can't get rid of multiple tablet services running on my notebook that can;t be removed, just like the accessability garbage and useless drivers and on and on....

I so need to learn Linux....

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 100 Contributor
Posts 1,076
Points 11,645
Joined: Jul 2009
Joel H replied on Wed, Mar 14 2012 2:40 PM

FloydF, 

 

Typically such services and programs can be removed, though you may have to do a bit of Googling to find out how. Services can be manually turned off in Administrative controls; programs can typically be uninstalled if you Google the program name + "uninstall." 

If you bought an OEM system and want to use a fresh copy of whatever OS you have, there are ways to get yourself an ISO image of the OS in question. Technically, you're only licensed to use whatever version of the operating system came with your machine -- but, then, the extraneous applications aren't actually part of the OS you licensed .I'm not aware of any court case that decides the issue one way or another, but the option exists.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 2:21 AM

It's an Alpha, until they get to the release candidates then it's not yet in beta and there is still a lot they will still change.

 

Really, this release still has a lot of the developers code that won't be there when nearing final release and a preview is only a preview!

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 2:29 AM

Should probably update the article with the Keyboard shortcuts list for Windows 8 MS released, along with the add on 3rd party program that let's you put the Start Menu back in...

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 50 Contributor
Posts 3,236
Points 37,910
Joined: Mar 2010
AKwyn replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 5:12 AM

I know that I haven't been complaining about this as much as I should but what is there to complain about. If you're using a tablet, use metro but if you're using a desktop then it's another story. Personally I have not used metro at all to have an opinion on it but my opinion is this; there is a lot of hate towards metro because Micro$oft is forcing people to use it right, therefore there should be an option at setup to use the desktop or the metro interface, it solves alot of problems. Arguably Microsoft has an interface and they're trying to get desktop people to use it, I mean sure; I've seen people use Media Center on the desktop on like it but this is a UI on a system that you're going to be using full time, it's different. You can't do alot of the stuff you can on a Windows desktop and you certainly can't expect yourself to use it properly in a college environment; there is just alot of things hindering Metro for that purpose. While it's certain that Microsoft is targeting the tablet market, they're slowly forgetting about the computer market, the market that matters; all could be resolved by implementing a simple idea.

 

"The future starts with you; now start posting more!"

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 8:15 AM

JDiaz:
Should probably update the article with the Keyboard shortcuts list for Windows 8 MS released, along with the add on 3rd party program that let's you put the Start Menu back in...

Using that third party hack to restore your Start Menu results in a unremovable warning message from Microsoft being displayed on your desktop. Win-8 detects it's use and posts the message when you boot the PC the next time.

 

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 10:31 PM

It's an app, not a hack, perhaps you're thinking of something else?

Only issue with the app I've seen so far is the orb overlapping the Taskbar buttons but that can be worked around.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Thu, Mar 15 2012 11:40 PM

What is the source of this App? Does it have a traceable lineage? Is it approved? If so, then cool!

I tried three of those 'fixes' on my copy of 8 and all of them caused a message about copy-write infringement to be displayed on my desktop. Metro was gone, but I had company afterwards.

I formatted the HDD and reloaded 8 each time I tried another one of them too. I just got the latest 8 and it's doing the same thing.

I just hope that they listen to the public about this situation. If they don't then I'll stick with 7 and not be too upset about it either. 7 works fine by me.

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 20
Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Fri, Mar 16 2012 4:12 AM

I believe Stardock is releasing the app in question.

Mind that previews and even beta releases OS can still be buggy before final release version and even then we may have to wait till SP release for relatively bug free experience.

  • | Post Points: 5
Top 50 Contributor
Posts 2,917
Points 24,670
Joined: Jul 2001
Location: United States, New York
digitaldd replied on Fri, Mar 16 2012 11:24 AM

I myself am more concerned with various issues with the new metro version of IE than anything with the Start Menu, I mean you can add a programs Toolbar to the task bar to mimic a Start Menu for Non Metro apps. I mean right now the metro version of IE has no configurable options like disabling 3rd party cookies, setting security zones, tab management, etc. Also I'm finding that often my  Metro version of IE loses any tabs that were open just of its own free will and there's no way to access recently closed tabs/windows/groups, you can at least find the tabs in the history but that is not very efficient.

Top 500 Contributor
Posts 309
Points 2,695
Joined: Aug 2010
JDiaz replied on Sat, Mar 17 2012 3:04 AM

The desktop mode is I'd suggest indicative that MS isn't necessarily forcing anyone to use Metro. It's just something they are showcasing at this point because that's the big change and something important for how they will start competing in the mobile market.

Though it remains to be seen if they will be able to provide the range of customization to keep Metro completely out if people prefer to stick to traditional desktop but it should be remembered this is only a preview version and the final version can still be very different.

While the suggestion of desktop for desktop is not new and was one of the things Windows 8 is suppose to be able to do when they're finished is to customize the defaults to the type of device it is installed on. The multiple versions being suggested for final release help support that idea will be something they will seriously consider implementing.

Though MS is considering future systems we buy into will include other things like Kinect, which could make the Metro UI more useful for desktop as well as mobile usage even without a touch screen.

A lot is still speculation at this point though and one of the reason they even bother with previews and release candidates is to get feedback and make changes if really needed. So let's neither assume this will be exactly like the final version or that MS won't consider making any changes along the way to make it better.

  • | Post Points: 35
Top 10 Contributor
Posts 8,687
Points 104,340
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley, Virginia
MembershipAdministrator
Moderator
realneil replied on Sat, Mar 17 2012 10:36 AM

JDiaz:
So let's neither assume this will be exactly like the final version or that MS won't consider making any changes along the way to make it better.

At this point I'm not assuming anything. I know what I like and I already have it here, so I'm in the position of pleasing myself and staying with Win-7 or migrating to Win-8, ~if~ I'm OK with the final version.

 I can see that this matters to you and I'm keeping an open mind from now on,....and I'm waiting to see what it will be like when it's all done. I am happy that I have a choice in this matter. That's cool.

Dogs are great judges of character, and if your dog doesn't like somebody being around, you shouldn't trust them.

  • | Post Points: 5
Page 1 of 2 (51 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS